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Re: [xsl] XSL is NOT easy

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Right tool right job... is another very appropriate discussion.  For
me, there is no better tool to deliver semantically clean HTML to
which I later style with CSS, and client script using the prototype
library then to do it parsing XML with XSL.  And since XSL is such the
right tool (IMHO), why not prepare yourself for all the wonder and
glory that XSL has to offer, hence:  persist all things XML.  This
means, query the database, convert datasets to XML, or pull raw XML
(use to love the old ADODB.Recordset.Save (xml property) feature -
which, today, equals a DataReader / XmlTextWriter custom solution (no
biggy), but also persist logons, form, query, and cookie variables,
HELL!  CONVERT EVERYTHING... AND THEN!
(breathe)... and then, turn around, your middle objects, they can use
this XML document too, like a big fat multi-dimennsional array,
everything you need to know, right at your fingertips, unleash the
power with just a single line of xpath, and then pass it on "pay it
forward" give your XSL a chance to use this wonderful xml object... it
just keeps getting better and better!  Just think, need to debug some
code?  Wouldn't it be nice to know anything and everything about a
user's request???

Karl S.

On 6/26/07, Wendell Piez <wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

At 03:18 PM 6/26/2007, Norias wrote:
>At 1:01 PM -0400 6/26/07, Robert Koberg wrote:
> > no you haven't. you have defended XSL's ease of use.
>
>That's not fair and it doesn't further the conversation. Wendell has said
>MANY things on this list and expressed a variety of opinions. You
>find one thing
>he said once that differs from his current statement and assume that
>this all he
>has ever said.
>
>You owe Wendell an apology.

Norias, thanks (I owe you), but no apology is necessary. Robert is
entitled to be wrong once in a while. I doubt that he intended the
post to sound the way it came out.

In this case, he's correct that I have defended XSLT's ease of use,
while wrong about whether I've never remarked on why some find it
difficult. (As you say, I've said many things on this list.)

Nic said:

>I think XSLT is quite good for non-programmers, it's programmers with
>some experience of other things that find it really difficult I've
>found.
>
>If I had 10pence for the number of times I've seen a programmer try to
>do something imperative in XSLT and get really, really, cross with it.

I do agree with this. Nor is it inconsistent with my experience that
XSLT "is" or "can be" easy.

That XSLT is "basically easy" does not mean that everyone finds it
so. That issue hinges on whether ease-of-use is an intrinsic property
of the language, or something more subjective. In my experience (and
I have plenty of experience teaching XSLT to all kinds of people),
those who find it difficult are also those who are resistant to
taking the language as it is, and instead insist on treating it as it
(as they believe it) "should be". But that doesn't make the language
intrinsically difficult any more than it means it's "actually" easy
for them, but they don't know it.

(I also think that just because XSLT is "basically easy" doesn't mean
that it's equally good at everything, or that solving any problem
with it, however intrinsically difficult or unsuited to it, will be easy.)

Once I had a German professor (I mean, a Professor of German) who
used to tell us "German is easy. In Germany, even the kids speak it fluently".

Aren't search engines great? If you really care, check out what I
said four years ago, in a different context:

http://www.biglist.com/lists/xsl-list/archives/200306/msg01291.html

It's not inconsistent with what I'm saying now. If anything has
changed, it might be that I now have a bit more sympathy with those
who find it (or anything) difficult. (About that, Robert is correct.)

Mike said
>It's also true of course that many computer science graduates have a lot
>still to learn. I certainly did when I was a new graduate. I still have now,
>that's one of the things you learn....

And I was never as smart as I was when I was eighteen years old. Then
I had it all figured out, but ever since I've been learning of more
and more things about which I haven't the slightest clue.

Cheers,
Wendell

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Wendell Piez                            mailto:wapiez@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.                http://www.mulberrytech.com
17 West Jefferson Street                    Direct Phone: 301/315-9635
Suite 207                                          Phone: 301/315-9631
Rockville, MD  20850                                 Fax: 301/315-8285
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